No Grumpy Runners

Chacho Valadez 0:08
Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to Running in Public. This is the weekly podcast that empowers you to build your running routine while also making strides in your career. I’m your host, Chacho Valadez, and this is my first ever podcast. I’m so so happy about it. In each episode, I sit down with a startup founder, operator, or leader to talk about their experience of running while they also build and run their companies. You’ll walk away feeling empowered to run your next mile while also making strides in your career. And honestly, we support any form of movement on the podcast that suits your lifestyle. So whether you like to run, walk, bike, or swim or whatever it might be, we’re all in this together.

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Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Running in Public. I’m super happy that you’re here. Today I have Melody Meckfessel, the CEO and co-founder of Observable, which is helping build the future of data collaboration. She is passionate about helping humans thrive through collaboration, inclusion, and insights. Before Observable, she was the VP of engineering at Google, leading systems with a team of 1,000+ (which is impressive) and she created dev ops practice for Google Cloud. Thank you so much, Melody, for joining the show.

Melody Meckfessel 2:22
Oh, I’m so happy to be here. What a great topic.

Chacho Valadez 2:25
Thanks so much. That means a lot. I would love to start a little bit about yourself and like your background, and then kind of leading into where running came along that journey.

Melody Meckfessel 2:37
Okay, great. Yeah, a bit about myself. Well, I grew up on a farm and rural northern California. So I, I would like get up in the morning and feed the animals before I went to school, which is very disconnected from where to take the day, in tech. And for most of my career, looking back, the fact that I would have a career in software engineering, and the opportunity to build a platform to impact millions and millions of people is anyway, I’m just very grateful. I fell in love with coding in high school, I got exposed to this basic class, and college and really just kind of got hooked, I worked at startups, enterprise companies, went through kind of multiple tech bubbles, the advent of cloud technology. And now the world of tech that we’re that we’re seeing today. I feel really grateful I worked at Google for a while close to 15 years, and I worked in core search, I worked in cluster management, usually it was kind of the all the the systems distributed systems behind the consumer facing products that people saw. So kind of the thing that made the thing work was one of our taglines, it wasn’t white. And then I got into Google Cloud, which was it was a blast. I grew from kind of a tech lead after I was writing code all day to VP of engineering. And the thing that really inspired me and hooked me was I started studying, how do we empower more people, when they’re writing when they’re building applications when they’re working with data and how technology is in service of that. And there are two things that I come back to that I think are really powerful to consider when we’re building technology for people. And the first thing is that there’s something really amazing that happens when people can stay in flow with each other. When they can build on each other’s work when they can ask questions. It’s so relevant with data but that staying in flow is really transformative to what people can do together. And the second thing, which you might laugh, is something that I call no grumpy humans. So a lot of people that I know and myself included, sometimes we get grumpy because the tools we’re using are changing all the time and things break. And so what can we do to kind of Remove the toil, or add automation. So people are happy when they’re doing their work. So these two ideas of like, productive and staying in flow and like bringing some happiness into the work, I think that’s really kind of my way of thinking about collaboration. And that’s what we’re doing and observable, which is really just a blast.

Chacho Valadez 5:23
That’s awesome. Can I use that for the show? No grumpy humans. That’s awesome. I love that so much.

Melody Meckfessel 5:30
It’s so important when you’re working because this work is really difficult. I believe that we are more creative, we are more powerful, we are more insightful when we work together so Observable’s mission is to help everyone—keyword everyone—make sense of the world with data and to do it together. That way in which we can empower people to collaborate, to gain insights, people from all different backgrounds to come together to learn from their data, that’s what I’m inspired by, that’s what gets me up every day, to help do that, to help be part of the future of what happens with data. I really believe that that is collaboration.

Chacho Valadez 6:14
That’s really cool. So I grew up in rural Wisconsin. So I have to tease out like, the planning aspect of things. Because before we got into the running, because you had so interesting how that affects you, I had family friends who were farmers and like some of the hardest working people I’ve ever met, and how did that experience sort of shaped who you are today?

Melody Meckfessel 6:40
That’s a really great question. My life on the farm as a kid, I was expected to contribute so I learned independence and autonomy, I had to figure things out. Like, if there was a problem feeding the calves in the morning there, everyone was doing their own job. So I had to figure out what needed to happen. Or driving the tractor to move something around. Like, if I got stuck, I kind of had to figure it out. I knew I could ask for help. But I think that kind of independence that I— no one said anything about it, but I think it was just kind of like you learn how to do things, and you, you have an obstacle, you kind of figure it out on your own. And then you went to school, and like you had a normal school day. I mean, my school is very small. I think there are about 10 kids in my elementary school class and then you came home and like you did work, and of course, like had fun along the way. But I think probably like the heart of it is you can this confidence that I gained at a very early age of being able to do things that I didn’t know how to do figure it out. I made mistakes, lots of mistakes, but really just that idea of like, okay, there’s something I need to figure out how I’m going to do it until I figure it out. And and yeah, I think that independence really stuck with me. On the route, especially in tech, when there were there were a lot of obstacles in tech, as I think like an underrepresented person and in technology of kind of being the only person in the room and having to sit with that and work through it. So I am really grateful. It is very strange to explain it to people sometimes because Silicon Valley, and the tech industry in general is so disconnected from kind of the day-to-day of what happens like my parents, I don’t know if you have this experience. But my mom consistently asked me like, What is the cloud? Like, what does your account what is code? Like, betas don’t know. It’s not in their frame of reference.

Chacho Valadez 8:47
Sure, yeah. That’s interesting. You were kind of taught to be a hacker of problems before you learn how to code in a way.

Melody Meckfessel 8:55
Yeah, that’s a great way to think about it.

Chacho Valadez 8:57
That’s cool. So when did you start running?

Melody Meckfessel 9:01
I started running in elementary school. I ran track. It was basically grass, a grass lap track. We had track meats, I would do like the 100 yard dash and the relay. And yeah, and then I broke my I broke my ankle in high school for another sports injury. And I kind of got out of running until, I don’t know, a little while ago, I got back into it. Because I was I was I was just working a ton and I got really out of shape. And I felt really unhealthy. And I kind of lost myself. I was just, I was working way too much. And I wanted, I wanted to kind of shake things up and get healthy again. And so I started training for a marathon. I never run a marathon before I got some help from a running group in San Francisco because I’m based in San Francisco and I ran my first marathon in Chicago Chicago’s a great place to run a marathon like the city get kowtow into it. They know the band’s and the cheering I’ll never forget it. So I started running when I was little. And then I got I didn’t run at all. And then I kind of got back into it as an adult. I did a Ragnar. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to do Ragnar before.

Chacho Valadez 10:20
I have actually never heard of a Ragnar. What is that?

Melody Meckfessel 10:22
It’s a team relay. So you essentially run for 24 hours or more, a long distance, but you split it up among anywhere from four to eight to n people. And that was a blast. That was a lot of fun.

Chacho Valadez 10:38
That’s cool. The Chicago marathon is on my bucket list, is it? Yeah, cuz I grew up, like, I have a lot of family that lives there. And I grew up like an hour and a half away, we went there a lot. And it’s just like one of my favorite cities. So I’m definitely gonna get there.

Melody Meckfessel 10:52
Highly recommend, highly recommend. The encouragement that the city gives to the runners is just incredible.

Chacho Valadez 11:01
I love that. What does running do for you today? Or like, why do you run today?

Melody Meckfessel 11:07
A lot of us sit at our desk, at our computer, at the keyboard. The reason why I keep running today is that I I really value and I’m grateful for my ability to move. When I run, I love to run outside, I think that’s the first thing I love to be present with my neighborhood, the sun is shining, if it’s sprinkling a little bit, if the fog is out in San Francisco, there’s something about being able to use your body to move through the world that I I really enjoy. And I think it kind of it kind of feeds me. I often I live in the Castro in San Francisco. And so I will run into Golden Gate Park. And it’s just, it’s beautiful. And you get to be out in nature, right? You’re still in a city, but you get to be out in nature. So that’s why I do and I do it to kind of come back to being present with myself and to be out in the world.

Chacho Valadez 12:04
Yeah, that presence is definitely something, especially if you do trail run, and you just have to be, it like forces you to be present.

Melody Meckfessel 12:13
Yeah, yeah, I haven’t done a lot of trail running. And I’ve been very curious about it.

Chacho Valadez 12:17
Yeah, I’ve done it a few times. And it’s like, you just got to really watch your stuff. Otherwise, you can definitely like just go go off the trail or slip or something like that. So what’s your running routine look like today?

Melody Meckfessel 12:33
With my schedule, with the company being at the stage that it is Observable, we’re growing, I don’t have a lot of time during the weekdays. And I also have a 13-year-old girl who has her own set of sports schedules. So mostly my running schedule these days looks like running on the weekends. Sometimes if I’m lucky, I get a late afternoon run in. And I do want whenever I can, like on the weekends, I love to run in the morning because it’s so quiet. It’s like the city isn’t awake yet. You can hear the birds. I wish I had an opportunity to run more. But I feel like that’s kind of that’s kind of what I can do is is run a couple of times a week and and usually it’s on the weekends.

Chacho Valadez 13:16
What do people tend to miss about running that you find particularly important?

Melody Meckfessel 13:20
I know I have a lot of friends that are they’re really goal driven in life, but also in their running. And I really appreciate running almost as, like a meditation, I really find that running can be very calming and meditative, the sounds of like your feet hitting the ground, you listening to your breath listening to the world around you. I find that sometime—or maybe people just don’t talk about it, I don’t know—but there’s something that I really appreciate about the mindfulness that you can kind of experience with Rouhani or kind of like to go back to that. What I was saying, I feel like this, this phrase of like staying in flow, like you can really get in flow when you’re running. You can really sort of like get in the groove with yourself. And I I guess my wish is that people will also appreciate that aspect of running.

Chacho Valadez 14:22
Do you listen to anything while you run?

Melody Meckfessel 14:27
No. I know. I don’t do headphones. I don’t do music or podcasts. I know a ton of people that listen to podcasts when they run. I don’t do that. And I think I learned that when I listened to my breathing and I’m and I don’t listen to music. I just kind of like I’m really trying to stay in flow with like, Okay, can I speed up like do I have the energy to go a bit faster for a while or am I climbing a hill and I need to sort of really listen to how steep is this hill and how fast can I take it? Yeah, so I don’t listen to music.

Chacho Valadez 15:06
Yeah, that’s impressive for sure.

Melody Meckfessel 15:08
It’s a bit odd.

Chacho Valadez 15:11
It’s definitely not the norm. But I think that it ties back to what you’re talking about with being present. And like you’re picking up on so many different things that like, I missed because I’m listening to an audiobook or podcast or music. And you’re talking about like, hearing your feet hit the ground up a hill to like, understand whether or not you’re like going fast, too fast or not , that’s really intriguing. It just adds a whole nother sort of layer of running that seems to be missed when you got something playing in your ears, so I’m going to try it. I’m going to try running without—

Melody Meckfessel 15:53
Do an experiment.

Chacho Valadez 15:55
Right. I’ve definitely gone on longer runs where I’m out there for like two hours or so and I can’t listen to anything. Then it’s like, oh, wait, this is really nice. I can hear the birds. I do hear my feet and the cars driving by and stuff. That’s really cool.

Melody Meckfessel 16:16
One experiment: when I’m really stuck on something at work, like I just can’t stop thinking about it and I can’t find a way through. I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna go for a run right now. And I’m just gonna see, like, what comes to me, and inevitably, will be like, Oh, I’m tired. I don’t want to run emails, like, I’ll start complaining, like Mike, my inner my inner monologue, right? And then it’ll kind of go away, and I’ll get in the groove. And then like, all either, while I’m running, some other idea will come to me or after the run, when I’m cooling down, or whatever. I’m like, oh, oh, maybe there’s something here and I think that’s another part of running that I feel like the meditative part of it of kind of clearing your mind. It can help you work through things that you might be stuck on. So sometimes they do that as an experiment. And like, oh, okay, I’m gonna go for a run now, right?

Chacho Valadez 17:11
I definitely done that. Or my wife is kind of like, you’re a little edgy, maybe you should go on a run. So, yeah, honestly happened as well, I, what I do is I usually listen to a song or an album that I’ve listened to like, hundreds and hundreds of times, and then my brain doesn’t even process it. And then I get into this state of flow, where I can sort out my thoughts, or just kind of try to like release them. And inevitably, like you said, ideas do come to mind or a solution comes to mind, or you’re just able to sit with it better as a result of that physical movement.

Melody Meckfessel 17:47
I agree.

Chacho Valadez 17:49
What’s your favorite thing about running?

Melody Meckfessel 17:52
Oh, geez. A lot of what we’ve talked about with a mindfulness, I guess the the other thing that I love about running is that I never know what’s going to happen. Like what I’m going to encounter. And I, I do like to run outside. So some of my favorite memories of running, just to run, have been encountering animals, like just just chance encounters that you have, there are quite a few coyotes in San Francisco, believe it or not, and if you’re running in the park, or in other parts that are just not as populated, I was running in the panhandle of Golden Gate Park, and this hawk flew right in front of me 20 feet and stopped. And I just kind of slowed down a little bit. And it just was there. And I just kind of I’m like, Okay, there’s this beautiful Hawk that landed and I’m just gonna run, run by it. So I don’t know, that’s kind of one of my favorite things is that I don’t know what is going to happen on a run. And then I have these experiences, which are very kind of at odds of living in the city, but really beautiful. I think in terms of being out being out in the world and being out in nature.

Chacho Valadez 19:04
Absolutely. I’ve definitely run across a few like gardener snakes or 500 deer. And this is odd. Speaking of being odd. What I do is if I see a snake or like a fox or even birds, squirrels, I usually say Hi, Mike, I squirrel. Hope you having a good day because I’m by myself and there’s no one around me so it doesn’t sound crazy.

Melody Meckfessel 19:27
I love that. I love that.

Chacho Valadez 19:29
Yes. Cool. Okay, so we’ll take a quick break right now to hear from our sponsor hirerunner.co.

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode. Don’t forget to check out our sponsor, hirerunner.co for all your fractional and temp-to-hire operations talent needs. Now let’s get back into the show.

Thanks, everyone. Welcome back. So shifting gears a little bit here. How does running affect your role as a founder?

Melody Meckfessel 19:59
That’s a great question. I think one of the things about being a founder is that in many ways, there’s no template of what you need to do. And how you need to be, I think you can look out at for other models. And you can, of course, learn from other founders and other leaders, I think a lot of how running affects me as a founder is it helps me calm my mind, and then focus on problems that need to be solved. So I have this kind of reference point from running, where I can call my mind, I can get into this meditative state. And then when the when really tough problems hit during the day, whether it’s with our community, using the platform or with people within the team are some problem that we can’t see our way out of, I just come back to that. And I try and practice that in my work of, okay, let’s take a deep breath, we actually do that at work, take a deep breath, and kind of take a second and think about, okay, how can we put ideas on that on the table to help address this problem? I think also running isn’t always easy. It takes mental focus to run and it takes effort and that affects me as a founder and I come back to that.

Chacho Valadez 21:35
Yeah, that’s really powerful. Would you consider running as part of your role as a founder? Like, is it in your job description?

Melody Meckfessel 21:46
What do you mean by that? That’s so interesting.

Chacho Valadez 21:49
So I can show you or share the background of like, why I asked this question. When I was training for an ultra last year, I had to spend some time runnings, like in the mornings, and sometimes, especially on longer runs, it would cut into my work. And I started feeling really guilty, because I’m like, oh, I should be like, at work, answering emails on Slack, like, getting back to people. And I talked to Arlen, our Managing Director and Founder of backstage capital about it. And she’s like, No, like, if running is what you need to do to be your very best self at work. Like, you need to do that. And she’s like, if you need to start work an hour later. And if it makes you more effective at your job, then that’s what you need to be doing. And so it kind of flipped the script in my mind a little bit where I wasn’t stressing about it as much in terms of, okay, like, I was justifying it in a way of like, this is part of my job, like, I’m being the best version of myself via the act of running. And so that’s where the genesis of this question comes from.

Melody Meckfessel 22:58
I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that. I love that. So yes, I would consider it part of my role. Tthe value that I get from running in terms of focus and being in flow with myself, both mentally and physically have Yeah, I absolutely believe that. I was thinking about the question in the terms of running, I’ve run some tough races before, and I wasn’t sure that I could do it. And I did it and I think being a founder is, is challenging. And so I think there can be a lot of self doubt trying to build something new in the world. And I remember not just races but other obstacles that I’ve overcome. And it, it gives me that energy. It recharges me. So I think that’s one way that I was thinking about it. But I absolutely agree with how you and think about it, which is, in order for me to bring my best self to my role movement is a big part of that. So I try and I try and move and exercise every day. So absolutely. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Chacho Valadez 24:09
Yeah, absolutely. And it was definitely an eye opener for me when I had that conversation with her. What parallels do you draw—because you were just hinting on them a little bit—between running and being a founder. It’s like super cheesy, but that’s the how I came up with the idea for this podcast. There are so many similarities, especially when you’re training for a race. So wondering what a few of those are for you.

Melody Meckfessel 24:37
In my role as a CEO, and then co founding the company, the job is pretty solitary, kind of the buck stops with you. And that can that can be kind of isolated, but I think the thing that it makes me think about is that it’s not necessarily lonely, because all of the work we do is as a team, right? like software engineering, building software building technology, it’s it really is like a team sport. And so yeah, this family cheesy, but like, the, the, the running in races, the being cheered on the kind of like collaboration and building each other up that happens and running is I think, really beautiful. And that part is very inspiring to me, I think there’s a lot of, yeah, there’s just a lot of obstacles, like every day, sometimes in multiple moments in a day that you have to work through. And I think that there is a persistence that you can have with running that can really, really help and I have completely bombed and failed at some races. And that happens. Like, we all make mistakes. We all struggle, but we keep going, like we keep going through it. And we do it because we’re working with a team of people. So I don’t know, that’s kind of what comes up. For me when I think about running and the parallels with running a company, growing a company doing something from scratch, that’s not being done in the world, there’s no like path. Sometimes you have to just create your own and go for it. And know that you might be on that trail, right? And you might fall down and you have you just get back up, right, you don’t sit on the trail, you just get back up and you and you do your best to finish.

Chacho Valadez 26:24
I love that. Thanks for sharing. Last question here before the rapid fire questions. What’s the most difficult part of balancing a running routine with being a founder?

Melody Meckfessel 26:36
I was admiring your scheduling of getting up in the morning. Time, just time. I’m very good time management. I prioritize every day and I focus on the things that are going to have the most impact. And sometimes you just can’t predict it, and you run out of time. So I I really like to have a buffer of time when I run so that if I want to keep going if I am in flow. And that usually means that yeah, that I I try and make sure that I carve out the time on the weekends or when I have downtime to do. Like I block it on my calendar. Right. Which may sound silly, but it’s like a commitment that I’m making to myself. I like to work toward goals. I haven’t had many cold the last couple of years just because of what’s going on in the world with my schedule. But I did I am signing up for a couple of races later this year and going to run my first Ultra with my best friend next year. So that will be my first my first trial until Ultras.

Chacho Valadez 27:35
How long have an Ultra?

Melody Meckfessel 27:37
It’s 50 miles. That classifies as an Ultra, right?

Chacho Valadez 27:42
Yeah. Technically an Ultra is anything beyond the 26.2 miles. So if you’re on 25 miles, technically, it’s an ultra. Today, the races generally start at 50k, which is 31 miles. So yeah, you’ll do great.

Melody Meckfessel 27:59
Thanks.

Chacho Valadez 28:00
Of course. So we’ll get into the rapid fire questions here. Feel free to take as long as you want to answer them honestly because they make for really great tangents, so they’re not like as rapid fire. It’s my podcast so I can do what I want here. So first question is, if you had one book to recommend to your younger self, what would it be?

Melody Meckfessel 28:19
Oh, this is so tough. I get this gonna be this might be strange, but and I don’t even know if the book was released when I was a kid. So like I didn’t I don’t know the like the publication date. I got really into studying meditation and Buddhism later in high school. And there’s this really great set of books called The Tao of Pooh. It’s about Winnie the Pooh. And I think there’s another one that he wrote called The tale of Piglet, but it’s all about how Buddhist principles and like Taoism, while Taoism and like different practices related to Taoism play out in Winnie the Pooh. And I think there’s something that I read it as an adult, I was like, this is this email, like, is poo, actually, is this actually happening? So if I could go back to my little kid self like at hand that book and I think I would look at Winnie the Pooh and maybe the world around me in a very different way as as a young kid.

Chacho Valadez 29:23
That’s incredible. I’m definitely gonna have to get that. What was your dream job as a kid?

Melody Meckfessel 29:28
Ah, it was a doctor. Nice. Like, I don’t know why, because I didn’t really know any doctors. And I don’t think I really liked my pediatrician as a kid. But I there was something about helping people like when they were just sick that I thought was just like, wow, I want to do that. I want to do that. I want to help people.

Chacho Valadez 29:50
I wanted to be a doctor, too. So did you Yeah. Well, as a kid, I wanted to be an NBA basketball player, of course, and I was for sure gonna do it. But it’s absolutely yeah. So let’s see, what was your first job?

Melody Meckfessel 30:07
That I actually earned money? Because I think working on the farm, I don’t tell that like that was like I had to do that that was part of contributing. i i The first time when I made my own money I babysat for neighbors and then I mowed lawns and then in high school, I bussed tables at a restaurant. Those were my first jobs. Nice. How about you?

Chacho Valadez 30:32
My first job? Oh, I washed dishes at a family friend’s Mexican restaurant. And I just did it for an afternoon and they like they gave me like a $20 bill or something. And I just remember that’s the first time I like, did manual labor for for work. But then in high school, I did help my cousin run his window cleaning company. So we did like window cleaning at like rich people’s houses, which is really fascinating. But so I’m a former professional window cleaner.

Melody Meckfessel 31:04
Isn’t that great? Bussing tables and washing dishes is super hard work to do at an early age. I am overly appreciative of folks in the service industry, and how important they are and never take that work and that service for granted.

Chacho Valadez 31:23
I wholeheartedly agree for sure. Next one here is filling in the blank. Running is blank.

Melody Meckfessel 31:30
Fun. That was just immediate.

Chacho Valadez 31:33
We’re going with that. Running is fun. This one will be interesting. If you had to listen to one song on repeat for an hour long run, what would it be?

Melody Meckfessel 31:41
Oh, I know. It’s hard because I don’t listen to music. Right? And so Oh, jeez. No, I really love Jimi Hendrix. I’ve been listening to a lot of Jimi Hendrix lately, so maybe like all along the watchtower, because I just find that it’s so like, it just kind of takes you on this journey. I don’t know. That’s hard.

Chacho Valadez 32:04
Well, it’s for an hour long run.

Melody Meckfessel 32:05
Well, it wouldn’t be the soundtrack from Frozen. It would not be that.

Chacho Valadez 32:15
Yeah. No, Jimi Hendrix is great. Yeah. Although, if you was the Frozen soundtrack, that’d be perfectly fine, too.

Melody Meckfessel 32:25
Sing it over and over again. I feel like I know all the words because of my daughter.

Chacho Valadez 32:28
You might run your fastest ever mile listening to let it go over and over and over. Let’s see. So what’s your go to running app?

Melody Meckfessel 32:38
I don’t use running apps. I’ve tried a couple. I am a big fan of a company called Whoop. I really like it because it helps me understand my heart rate and strain. And so when I go for longer runs, just trying to pay attention to okay, how was that? Do I need to rest? And it helps me also with sleep. Just knowing like, Okay, how did I sleep? Did I sleep? Okay, last night? Can I actually go harder today at a ran. I like Whoop.

Chacho Valadez 33:14
That’s great. So last one here is what’s your favorite thing about yourself and why?

Melody Meckfessel 33:20
Oo, these are tough.

Chacho Valadez 33:22
Maybe there shouldn’t be quick-fire questions.

Melody Meckfessel 33:27
I would say resilience. I’ve had my share of obstacles in my life and I really appreciate that. I just keep getting back up. Just keep get back up and keep going.

Chacho Valadez 33:42
That’s great. Thanks so much. And where can people follow on your journey?

Melody Meckfessel 33:46
On ObservableHG.com? I’m on Twitter and also on LinkedIn.

Chacho Valadez 33:53
Cool. Yeah. Well, thanks so much Melody, no grumpy humans here on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. This was a blast. It was a great conversation.

Melody Meckfessel 34:02
Thank you so much. It was great to great to talk with you today.

Chacho Valadez 34:05
Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you have a chance, please leave us a review and let us know what you liked about the show, and if you want to follow along with future episodes, go to your favorite podcast platform and hit the subscribe button, or you can also go to runninginpublic.co where we’ll be updating the website regularly. I’ll catch you on the flippety-flip.